Comment · Thu, July 2, 2020 · ND Owner
Immune Defense & positive blood test results
Original post in this thread
solothesensei · 10 points
Hi ND team and u/misteryouaresodumb, a few months ago I started taking ND's Immune Defense. I also took two blood tests near the start and end of the bottle.
Interestingly, the scores on my WBC differential count improved quite significantly, especially with respect to lymphocytes (went from 2.5x10\^9 to 3.6x10\^9 per liter). I understand these include the NK cells, T cells and B cells.
This seems positive but can immunity be actually quantified by these numbers on a blood test? In any case, you guys are doing amazing work. Thank you for all that you do.
What they were answering
relevantme · 1 points
Based on what you know of Tongkat Ali's MOA, how (if at all) might it interact with someone on TRT?
I don't imagine it could increase total T if you're getting it from an exogenous source, as your natural production has been shut down. But might it still increase free T, perhaps?
At some point I'll have bloods to know for sure, but I'm curious what your thought are.
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb · ND Owner
That's an interesting question. So buckle up, as I imagine this is going to be a long one.
So many people know that tongkat ali increases testosterone. However, that is only part of the story. The other big part of the story is leptin. So leptin is a hormone in the body that control hunger and body fat. Obese people actually have a decreased sensitivity to leptin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin
Tongkat ali decreases leptin levels while increasing testosterone levels.
Eurycoma Longifolia root extract can significantly decrease serum leptin levels in relation to the rise in serum testosterone levels. Eurycoma Longifolia consumption also causes a significant decrease in total body weight pointing to the possibility of decreased body fat content.
Leptin is a 16 kDa protein hormone that plays a key role in regulating energy intake and energy expenditure, including appetite and metabolism, it is one of the most important adipose derived hormones. The Ob (Lep) gene is located on chromosome 7 in humans. It is manufactured primarily in the adipocytes of white adipose tissue. Leptin reduces appetite as a circulating signal and the level of circulating leptin is directly proportional to the total amount of fat in the body. In spite of its function to regulate energy intake and expenditure, obese individuals generally exhibit an unusually high circulating concentration of leptin and this is mainly due to the increase amount of total body fat. Leptin is inversely related to testosterone and numerous studies have documented this relationship. Studies done on hypo-gonadal men with very low levels of testosterone showed high levels of leptin that declined significantly upon administration of exogenous testosterone indicating that testosterone is a modulator of leptin. Other studies have also shown that there is a decrease in serum testosterone level in obese men and significant rise in serum leptin levels. It also has been reported that Malaysia also have similar problem of high prevalence of obesity and low fertility rate especially in men.
So leptin and testosterone are negatively correlated with each other. If testosterone goes up, leptin goes down, and vice versa. Lower leptin and increased testosterone are correlated with fat loss, muscle gain, and enhanced sexual function.
Whilst tongkat ali (TA) decreased body weight (BW) by 5.7% (P=0.0276) and omentum fat by 31.9% (P=0.0496), no changes in organ weights were found for the prostate, testes and epididymides. Testosterone concentration increased by 30.2% (P=0.0544). Muscle weight also increased, yet not significantly. Whilst sperm concentration, total and progressive motility and vitality increased significantly, MMP improved markedly (P=0.0765) by 25.1%. Because no detrimental effect could be observed, TA appears safe for possible treatment of male infertility and ageing male problems.
Another interesting effect is that it not only significantly increases testosterone in men, but also does in females as well.
In men, treatment with TA for 5 weeks resulted in the significant increases in total (ANOVA trend analysis:p= 0.0195) and free (ANOVA trend analysis:p=0.0001)testosterone concentrations and muscular force, as deter-mined by the hand grip test (ANOVA trend analysis:p= 0.0602), by 15.1%, 61.1%, and 16.6%, respectively.In addition, significant increases in the BUN (ANOVA trend analysis:p= 0.0190) and HGB concentrations(ANOVA trend analysis:p= 0.0188) by 26.6% and 6.1%,respectively, were observed.
As expected (Tambiet al., 2011), serum testosterone concentrations increased significantly in men, but, interestingly, both total and free testosterone also increased significantly in female participants by 48.6% and 122% after 5 weeks, respectively. This high increase in free bioavailable testosterone in female participants cannot be explained only by the higher concentrations of total testosterone. Most probably, the decline in serum SHBG concentrations contributed to the increase in free testosterone in female participants. Although significantly elevated after the treatment with TA, the testosterone levels (total and free testosterone) in the female participants were still well within normal physiological levels of 0.063–0.836 ng/mL and 1.0–8.5 pg/mL, respectively.Thus, it appears that a potential abuse by athletes (Myhaland Lamb, 2000) need not be considered.
So it looks like it results in a decrease in SHBG, or sex hormone-binding globulin, in females. This brings their SHBG levels more in line with men's levels, and consequently raises their testosterone levels. It doesn't raise it outside of normal levels, though. So females can also get the benefits of increase testosterone levels without the side effects of going over normal physiological levels. Interestingly enough, tongkat ali did not alter SHBG levels in men. So at least for men that is not a primary driver of the testosterone increase.
Tongkat ali also improved hemoglobin levels, which can affect the ability for the blood to transport oxygen.
Tongkat Ali had a positive effect on serum HGB concentration (p<0.05 for men). However, no aerobic measures were taken in the study with which to deter-mine whether this had a beneficial ergogenic effect.Although HGB concentration relates directly to the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood, one also has to consider the muscles’ ability to take up and use this oxygen to produce adenosine triphosphate. This result is in contrast to those described by Muhamad et al.(2010)who did not find any influence of TA supplementationon HGB concentration and HCT. Once again, this might be due to the period of TA administration being too shortand/or the dose being too low. Similarly, Ooi et al.(2001,2003) and Muhamad et al. (2009, 2010) have studied the effects of TA on cycling and running performance and noted no beneficial effects of acute supplementation, perhaps because of the dosage being too low. However,the fact that increased HGB concentrations were seen in this study warrants further investigation.
So what about people on TRT. How does the exogenous testosterone supplementation play into things. Well there is a study on normal rats, castrated rats, and testosterone-stimulated castrated rats that looks into it.
Results showed that E. Longifolia Jack promoted the growth of the sexual accessory continuously with 800 mg/kg of butanol, methanol, water and chloroform fractions significantly increased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 58.56 + 1.22, 58.23+0.31, 60.21_+0.86 and 62.35_+0.98 mg/ 100 g body weight, respectively, when compared with the controls (untreated) in the uncastrated intact male rats. Similarly, 400 mg/kg of the above fractions significantly in- creased (p<0.05) the leavator ani muscle to 48.21 -+ 0.43, 51.23 + 0.92, 49.23-+ 0.57 and 51.23-+ 0.33 mg/ 100 g body weight, respectively, whilst 800 mg/kg of the extracts further increased them to 49.23 + 0.82, 52.23 -+ 0.36, 50.21 + 0.66 and 52.35 + 0.58 mg/100 g body weight, respectively, when compared to controls (untreated) in the testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.
So they saw increases in muscle size in both the normal uncastrated rats and in the castrated but testosterone-replaced rats. So even though the group of rats that were castrated were receiving TRT, they still positively benefited from the tongkat ali. The study does not zero in on an exact mechanism. However, we can confidently assume it is not from a production increase in testosterone levels, as the rats were castrated. So the increase is coming from another mechanism. If that's the case, we can assume people on TRT will also see benefits from tongkat ali, as whether or not your T production is shut down doesn't seem to affect the mechanism tongkat ali uses.