Comment · Mon, November 1, 2021 · ND Owner
Super satisfied customer, just one small nitpick
Original post in this thread
xanthippusd · 33 points
I love ND products. I am a repeat customer and will remain so. The only little nitpick I can find that I think you guys can improve upon is that I picked up the 200 mg caffeine/100 mg theanine caps and half of the cap is coloured with Red #40 and #3. C'mon guys, using azo dyes in supplements? A lot of us avoid that shit even if they aren't yet linked to negative health outcomes. I will finish my bottle since you guys nailed the doses and I'm not \too\ worried, but I will seek an alternative for my next caffeine supp purchase unless you stop using azo dyes in the caps.
\*edited to say that this is also a great reminder of 'buyer beware' - ND has been SO good with not including sketchy ingredients in the vast majority of their products that I got overconfident and bought these without even reading the ingredients as I would with almost any other brand. That is of course my careless mistake.
What they were answering
Direct reply to the original post — see the thread post above.
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb · ND Owner
There is a lot of misinformation out there about colorings that is spread around. The same goes for magnesium stearate and other ingredients like silicon dioxide. There was a single improperly run study that people point to as evidence it is harmful, but both the FDA and EFSA have assessed that study and the other available research, and have said multiple times it is safe. I'll link the full study most point to as evidence.
https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0140-6736%2807%2961306-3
To start, they are assessing the effects of combos of food colorings in large amounts you would find in foods. For the 3 year old children, this was the equivalent of 2 whole 56 gram bags of candies. So 112 grams of candies colored with multiple colorings in 3 year olds. For the 8/9 year old group, they went up to 4 bags of 56 gram candies in one of the mixtures per day. We are talking large doses in small children of a mixture of pure colorings. It's not relevant to small amounts in capsule shells. Moreover, the study in question had too many variables and the results relied on parent and teacher observations, not actual ADHD diagnoses.
The EFSA even addressed the studies and found they were not concerned, and upheld their existing ADIs.
https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.2903/j.efsa.2009.1327
The EFSA found that there were the following issues with that study:
* There was a lack of consistency in the results with respect to age and gender of the children, the effects of the additive mixtures they were given, and the type of observer.
* There is unknown clinical relevance of the effects measured.
* There is lack of information on dose-response.
* There is unknown relevance of the small effect size.
* Since mixtures of additives were used, it's not possible to identify the effects of the individual additives.
* There is a lack of plausible biological mechanism that might explain the possible link between the consumption of colors and behaviors.
The ADI for the color in question, called Allura Red AC in the EU, is 7mg/kg per day. For someone my weight, that is an ADI of 588mg per day. That means that the EU says it is safe for someone my weight to consume 588mg of it per day. The amount in one of our caffeine/L-theanine capsules is 0.33795mg. That is 0.057% of the ADI for someone my weight. It's effectively meaningless at these concentrations, even if there were issues with it, which I don't see any compelling evidence that there is.
This is my main issue with a lot of things like this. There are so many blogs out there spreading unscientific and misleading propaganda. Many places get people riled up over things for no other reason than controversy sells. They get more clicks by making people freak out over things. It is the same thing with the MSG hysteria. I used MSG this weekend in chili I made for a chili cook-off. Nobody got headaches from it... because they didn't know it was in there. Had someone told them it had it, they may have magically thought they had a headache after. There's no evidence MSG causes any issues, and it is already in things like tomatoes and cheese. Yet some people are absolutely convinced it causes issues, even when they are unknowingly consuming it without any issues. I have no issue avoiding certain ingredients if there is valid scientific evidence that they might be harmful. However, I do have a problem changing what we do based on pressure stemming from unscientific sources. The colors used in the capsules are approved by both the FDA and EFSA for use in foods in much much higher amounts than you could ever get in a capsule shell. All the evidence available shows they are perfectly safe. They also allow for people to tell the difference between the higher caffeine version of our product, which is a safety concern that I want to continue to address. Removing the color will prevent people from being able to tell if the capsule they are holding contains double the amount of caffeine they think it does, so I certainly don't want to do that without compelling scientific evidence for the reasoning behind removing it. The amount is so meaningless, too. You'd get more from 5 gummy bears. So we could remove the color from the capsules. However, we would not be doing that because of compelling scientific evidence.