Comment · Fri, September 20, 2013 · Ceretropic
Simple supplements changing my life, how to start with the basics (Nootropics).
Original post in this thread
370921A · 118 points
Hello all!
This post is about my research and personal journey into Nootropics. The first section is mostly about my take aways after doing a lot of reading/research, and the second section is about my personal usage and effects.
To give some background... I became highly interested in Nootropics about 3 weeks ago, I'm getting ready to start an extremely challenging school and wanted to see what I could do externally to enhance my academic performance. After discovering the world of Nootropics, I immediately started absorbing everything I could get my hands on about the topic: Wikipedia articles, scientific studies, reddit posts, IRC chats, Erowid, online forums, Gwern's website (gwern.net), youtube videos, online market places (amazon comments), etc,. All of that research culminated into very few certainties about the sometimes muddled world of nootropics.
+ 1. Everyone's different; what works for one person may not work for you. Experience stories vary widely, drug sensitivity (dosage) can differ greatly for desired effects, etc,. Although there is some agreement on what effects certain Nootropics will cause, effects can be godsend perfect for some and terrible for others…
What they were answering
casconed · -4 points
The bearing of either of those studies on healthy individuals is pretty limited. In the first, you are conflating in-vitro receptor expression with in-vivo activity, a common error. In the second, the sample size is on the small side, and measured some parameter called "vitality", not melatonin tolerance.
Nice try though.
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb · Ceretropic
I was not conflating anything. I was giving you some studies that were interesting.
http://wurtmanlab.mit.edu/static/pdf/1049.pdf
> for the most part patients have not been able to use the
lowest fully effective doses because the only doses that are commercially
available have been substantially higher. Such doses, which raise
plasma melatonin to levels many times greater than those of younger people, produce side-effects not observed at the lower, more physiologic sleep-promoting doses, for example hypothermia; 7,8 hyperprolactinemia;
and ‘morning grogginess’. **Moreover, the markedly-elevated melatonin
levels can also desensitize the brain receptors on which melatonin must
act to promote sleep, 1probably causing some users to become refractory
to the beneficial effects of exogenous melatonin or even to the melatonin
their own pineal glands secrete.**
Yes, that study was providing recommendations for elderly people to bring their melatonin back to normal youthful levels, but the mechanisms are relevant to anyone.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522910
The decrease in MT2 melatonin receptor number induced by melatonin (300 pM for 1 h) was reversible and reached almost full recovery after 8 h; however, after treatment with 10 nM melatonin full recovery was not attained even after 24 h. This recovery process was partially protein synthesis dependent. Furthermore, exposure to physiological concentrations of melatonin (300 pM) for a time mimicking the nocturnal surge (8 h) desensitized functional responses mediated through melatonin activation of endogenous MT2 receptors, i.e., stimulation of protein kinase C (PKC) in immortalized SCN2.2 cells and phase shifts of circadian rhythms of neuronal firing in the rat SCN brain slice. We conclude that in vivo the nightly secretion of melatonin desensitizes endogenous MT2 melatonin receptors in the mammalian SCN thereby providing a temporally integrated profile of sensitivity of the mammalian biological clock to a melatonin signal.
So the desensitization happens in vivo too.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2581482/
We found that MEL inhibits the magnitude of LTP measured in the CA1 region of C57 and C3H mouse hippocampus. This effect was most dramatic when a high concentration of MEL was applied (100 μM)
So higher concentrations of melatonin lead to more inhibition of long-term potentiation.
In the present study, we demonstrate that MEL (≥1 nM) can alter synaptic plasticity through MT2-mediated regulation of the AC–PKA pathway. MEL is secreted during the night and may function to keep the levels of AC–PKA restrained during the rodent’s active phase. We speculate that the secretion of MEL globally constrains synaptic plasticity so that the formation of LTP will be restricted to specific synaptic connections. We propose that MEL is a signalling molecule that may importantly impose a temporal structure on the hippocampal circuits involved in learning and memory. Our results also suggest that understanding the role of G-protein-coupled receptors that are negatively coupled to signalling cascades may provide important insights into the physiological regulation of synaptic plasticity.
We know that taking higher doses of melatonin at night can lead to higher MEL serum levels the next day. Since exogenous supplementation is not selective to the region of the body/brain like endogenous release is, and melatonin can inhibit LTP, it is reasonable to assume that taking too high of a dose of exogenous melatonin can be deleterious to one's cognition during waking hours. This is why I suggest taking the lowest effective dose possible.
Also, please leave your condescending asides like "Nice try though." out of the discussion. This is not a contest to see who can prove the other person wrong. This is a place for us to work together to figure out the best method for the use of these substances, and to understand the mechanisms at play.