Comment · Sat, November 21, 2020 · Natrium Health & Nootropics Depot
For the first time, a vertical farmed ginseng reproduces the effectiveness on the focus of wild ginseng in a double-blind clinical study. Its composition in rare ginsenosides (Rg5, Rg3, Rk1, Rh2, Rh4) is close to wild ginseng. The mind-boosting effect is felt from the first day.
What they were answering
windwoke · 7 points
u/misteryouaresodumb is this bullshit
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb · Natrium Health & Nootropics Depot
So the issue with the journal/study aside, the "rare" ginsenoside thing seems to be something. I don't think they are as rare at they are claiming, though. I just looked at the chromatogram of our Panax ginseng leaf, and many of them are in there in appreciable amounts. I can't say how much without buying the reference standards and doing a proper quantification, but if their response factors are similar to the other ginsengs, which they likely are, we are looking at probably 10-15%. This is a non-steamed leaf extract, too. It's not a red ginseng like our root extract is. Perhaps the leaves have more than the root, so they are "rare" in the root? I would need to do some more analysis to really know. These reference standards all exist, so it is possible. However, they are EXPENSIVE. I would likely have to spend $5,000 just to get all the standards, then I would need about a month of time from our method development scientist. He's a PhD scientist who's time is not cheap. So getting to a point where we can empirically confirm the numbers 100% would likely be $10-$15K. It's not worth it for how little Panax ginseng sells.
If we look at the data in the study, they are claiming that you have to grow the root in stressful conditions to get them to produce a large amount of these secondary metabolites/ginsenosides to adapt and survive. Then they steam the roots at 100*C, which is the same process any "red ginseng" is put through. That's how you get red ginseng root. It's not naturally red. It's steamed after it is harvested. We use a steamed red ginseng in the root extract we sell. We also use a non-steamed root extract in our PanaMAX. This means we have measured the differences between roots steamed and non-steamed, and there are minor differences in ginsenoside profile. However, it's not as big as some would make you believe. There is more variability based on other factors, like how the plant was grown and whether or not they shaved the root hairs off before extracting the roots. We have found major differences in ginsenoside profile from the main part of the root compared to the root hairs, and some places shave those hairs off, while others don't. This is where we see a lot of variability in the final ratios from root extracts. Now, the steaming does seem to affect these other ginsenosides. This means that while we don't see a whole lot of variability from the main ginsenosides in the USP monograph, there might be in these other ones that are not considered part of this grouping by USP. This is similar to what we have with ashwagandha. The USP monograph for ashwagandha is only looking at 8 of the withanolides, when there are like 40 of them in ashwagandha. So only looking at the USP monograph means you are missing a lot of the picture. This could be the case with Panax ginseng as well. In fact, I have no doubt there are effects from the ginsenosides not being looked at in the USP monograph.
So what about the chemistry? Well the differences in some of the "rare" ginsenosides are merely due to deglycosylation, which absolutely can be affected by stressing the plant or steaming the roots afterwards with heat. So that can be explained easily. However, the flipping of the stereochemistry cannot. You are not going to get an S>R flip by stressing or steaming. This is what the paper states is the difference between the "major" ginsenosides, or the USP STAG, and the "rare" ginsenosides.
• Stereo chemical configuration of C-20 (R) compared with that in major ginsenosides (S) [18,23]
• Lack of a hydroxyl group at C-20 [35] and
• Lack of a sugar moiety at C-20 or C-3 (less glycosylated) of the tetracycline skeleton [35].
So the lack of a hydroxyl group and lack of a sugar moiety can absolutely be explained by stressing the plant or steaming the roots. The flip of C20 from (S) to (R) is not as clear. Let's look at the individual ginsenosides.
Here are what they refer to as the "rare" ginsenosides.
• Rg2
• Rg3
• Rg6
• Rh1
• Rh2
• Rh3
• Rh4
• Rk1
• CK
• PDD (I have not been able to find a reference standard for this one)
So you can see that apart from Rh4 that has been discontinued, and PDD that doesn't seem to have one, you can get reference standards for all of them. So what could be altering the stereochemistry if it is not the steaming? Well you know our GS15-4, right? That is a pre-metabolized Panax ginseng extract that mimics what happens in your GI tract, which metabolizes the ginsenosides to compound K. This could be what is happening here. There has to be some sort of other biotransformation happening. That could be using enzyme fermentation like in GS15-4, which is what I would put my money on. There is probably an enzyme fermentation step happening in addition to the steaming that is leading to the increase in the (R) conformation ginsenosides. Could stressing the plant cause it? I guess maybe. That's a more complex biological process that I am not an expert on. I suppose it could be possible to stress a Panax ginseng plant enough to cause it to make more of the (R) conformation ginsenosides, then steam them after harvesting, which could lead to the amounts in the study. However, it seems that it would be much easier to just create a specific enzyme fermentation process to do it in a controlled way, like GS15-4 does.
Okay, so how does any of this shit actually affect how a specific extract of Panax ginseng works? Well it makes a lot of sense when you dig into it. So the entire reason for GS15-4 is to pre-metabolize the ginsenosides into compound K, which is much more bioavailable than the ginsenosides are in standard form. Well compound K is the CK one I linked above. You can see that is the "rare" ginsenoside with the highest concentration in the study we are discussing! So they are quite literally doing the same thing as GS15-4, which is leading to a higher amount of compound K (ginsenoside CK), which is leading to better bioavailability.
Well slap my ass and call me Sally! These guys created the same thing that already existed: GS15-4. LOL. They just seem to be steaming the roots as well, creating essentially a "Korean Red Ginseng" version of GS15-4. Could they be stressing the plants as well? Perhaps, or perhaps it is all just the enzyme fermentation. I would have to do some more analysis in the lab to really get into the differences, but their strategy is the same as what already existed in GS15-4. They are pre-metabolizing the ginsenosides into more bioavailable versions. This happens with regular ginseng in your GI tract as well. So you will still get these "rare" ginsensoides by taking an oral dose of a regular Panax ginseng extract. The benefit is faster abortion and it being a more controlled process. Your body will metabolize it into these, but that may vary by day and conditions. If you pre-metabolize, you know exactly how much of the more bioavailable ginsenosides you are getting.
So in the end this looks like a steamed version of GS15-4. The "rare" ginsenosides are not really rare at all. They are just metabolites of the major ginsenosides that get created in your GI tract. Having them pre-convert does have advantages, though. Anyone that has taken GS15-4 can attest to the fact that it starts working faster. This is because the metabolites, and compound K in particular, absorb a lot better in your GI tract. Will this lead to mind-blowingly different effects than a good "normal" Panax ginseng extract? Nah. It will just work faster and be more controlled.