Comment · Wed, September 2, 2020 · ND Owner
Is Phenylpiracetam by NootropicsDepot a racemic mixture or only the R-isomer?
Original post in this thread
vengeancefit · 5 points
I checked the product label on ND's website and I am unsure what to make of it. The label states: Phenylpiracetam (R,S)-2-(2-oxo-4-phenylpyrollidin-1-yl)acetamide. Does the bolded R mean it's the R-isomer variant of Phenylpiracetam?
Thanks in retrospect.
What they were answering
vengeancefit · -5 points
Of course you care, you want money like everbody else.
"That's how it works" is only correct IF the S-enantiomer doesn't negate the effects of the other. There are no studies to back up it's use. The racemic mixture doesn't have pro-cognitive effects in rats.
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb · ND Owner
You are arguing with me about something I was not even saying... That's how it works in relation to chemistry. Racemic is a 50/50 mixture of R and S isomers. That's it. That's how it works. Period. All current phenylpiracetam on the market is a 50/50 mixture of R-phenylpiracetam and S-phenylpiracetam. That discussion is done.
As to your other speculations, why would S-phenylpiracetam negate the effects of R-phenylpiracetam? You seem to assume they do without any evidence. Why is that? Explain to me pharmacologically how that might be. If they have different receptor affinities, how would the S-isomer prevent the R-isomer from binding to its receptors? We don't even need to speculate. The study you have been posting literally explains it for all of us...
How about we look at something we do have a lot of data on, and also comes in S and R isomers: amphetamine. We have R-amphetamine and S-amphetamine. When you take a mixture of the R and S, like in Adderall, you don't lose the effects of the S, do you? You just add the effects of the R. You still get the same dopaminergic affinities you have with pure S-amphetamine. You just also get the NE effects from the R-amphetamine. Take Dexedrine one day, then take Adderall the next. You can feel the dopaminergic effects with both, but the NE effects from the Adderall are more pushy. This fits with the pharmacokinetic and pharmacological data we have on amphetamine isomers. The same goes for R and S methylamphetamine. Taking racemic amphetamine or methamphetamine doesn't completely negate the effects of the "better" isomer. Why would it? It makes zero sense, unless there is some sort of competitive inhibition going on. There is no evidence there is any competitive inhibition with the isomers of phenylpiracetam.
I've personally tried R-phenylpiracetam. We did a small amount of it as a test years ago. It doesn't really feel much different than racemic. In fact, it seems less stimulating, which is part of why some people like phenylpiracetam in the first place. So it is very similar to the Adderall and Dexedrine comparison. Even the study you keep posting doesn't say what you are claiming...
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2011.00742.x
Here are the figures directly:
Look at that data and tell me that it shows racemic doesn't work. You can't, because it doesn't show that at all. In fact, the study you keep posting says exactly the opposite.
In conclusion, using different behavioural tests in mice, we have shown that the antidepressant and increased locomotor activity of racemic phenotropil relies on both enantiomers and is more pronounced of R-phenotropil. Moreover, the memory-improving activity was only characteristic of R-phenotropil. This may be important for the clinical use of the optically pure isomers of phenotropil.
OHH SHIT, exactly the opposite of what you are trying to claim! The stimulation and mood-boosting effects rely on BOTH enantiomers! Sure, the R-enantiomer is responsible for the memory effects. Nobody is disputing that. However, racemic is better for stimulation and mood-boosting effects. You get the memory effects from the 50% of the mixture that is the R-isomer, and you get the stimulation and mood effects from the 50% that is the S-isomer. The isomers work together to get the full pharmacological profile people expect. You do not lose the memory effects by having half the concentration be the S-isomer. The figures in the very study you posted show that. Just look at the 10mg/kg and 50mg/kg in each, then compare to the saline control... It literally shows your postulation is incorrect. Remember, the 50mg/kg racemic will only have 25mg/kg R-phenylpiracetam. So the racemic being less effective at retention latency makes sense. There's half the amount of R-isomer in that dose. Double the racemic dose and show me what it looks like! You can already kind of see that. Look at the 10mg/kg racemic dose and compare to the 5mg/kg R-isomer dose. They are almost the same. It completely refutes your entire assertion.
So again, why exactly are you here on my subreddit trying to misinterpret scientific data to make unsound claims, while insulting me and calling other customers of ours ignorant and stupid, then citing the exact research that refutes your wild assumptions? Why are you trying to aggressively get into an argument with me? I was not even originally discussing efficacy. You asked about chemistry. I answered about chemistry. You pulled us into a conversation about efficacy, which I begrudgingly have now addressed. The very study you posted refutes your assertion that racemic is useless. It's all in the data, if you cared to download the full study and read it. You seem to be more interested in arguing with me and saying that I am "exploiting ignorant and stupid individuals" here. It seems, and I mean this in the most respectful way possible, that there is only one truly ignorant and stupid person here.