Comment · Sun, May 12, 2019
Testing as a Service
Original post in this thread
thelonius97 · 13 points
So with Ceretropic and IRC.bio gone, there is pretty much no conveniently reliable supplier for the rarer nootropic substances. As a result, I'm sure there is great interest in group buys for 3rd party testing. I'm guessing the main reasons why they never end up happening are:
1. Requires someone to take initiative. Most people just assume they are alone in wanting this.
2. Requires you to trust a stranger (the person who will perform the buy on behalf of the group).
3. Limited options for payment (usually people from non-US countries will not be able to contribute).
4. Simply not as convenient as visiting a website and clicking a few buttons.
One example where there was interest but it didn't work out smoothly- https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/950cpg/group\_test\_for\_bromantane/
So I was wondering if ND, being well-known and trusted in the community, would be willing to be that central party to handle the group buy. That would solve all the issues mentioned above. Perhaps there could be an option to either do the tests in-house (when the needed equipment is availab…
What they were answering
thelonius97 · 1 points
Thanks for taking the time to explain! I had no clue about a lot of these intricacies. I completely understand your philosophy of doing it right or not at all. One thing though is that while the ISO-17025 certification you speak about might crucial for something like a supplement company that's relying on you for testing, the average (ignorant) user here would not be aware of or appreciate the amount of effort being put in and would be more than satisfied with a much more basic level of testing. I, personally, would be completely fine with paying for the "correct or wildly incorrect" testing you mentioned doing before, and would not hold you accountable for any errors. Anyway, I understand your final stance on the matter; just letting you know.
On a different note, is there any interest from your side in simply supervising the whole process and outsourcing the testing to third party lab? That way, by only being the middle man, you guys avoid facing any potential backlash. I understand that one should ideally approach the labs directly, but again, the hurdles I mentioned above are prevalent. ND, with its big name, contacts, payment processing, and what not, would provide an unmatched amount of convenience.
And one last thing. From what you've tested in the past, which suppliers of research chemicals (preferably ones that don't exclusively deal in bulk) have had a clean record…
u/MisterYouAreSoDumb
I understand that many here might be satisfied with some quick testing to see if things are completely wrong or not. However, I am not. If I am putting my name behind results, I am going to be damn sure nobody is going to get hurt. That's just my own standards. Then there is the risk. I know you might say people would not hold me responsible, but the law doesn't work that way. Legal responsibility is codified in laws and regulations, and often times it doesn't really matter whether or not someone wants to hold someone else accountable or not. On top of all the advancements we have gone through over the years, we have also gone through a lot of legal hurdles. I don't talk about those as much, but we have been through some shit. I have 4 lawyers on retainer now. That's not an exaggeration. I am not doing it for shits and giggles. We have used them many times, and continue to use them regularly. In the midst of our many legal dealings, I have had some very detailed and eye-opening conversations with these lawyers about all manner of things. Frankly some of those conversations scared the everloving shit out of me. I've had some bad days... Just like I understand analytical chemistry to a completely different level now than when I started, I also understand the legal system a lot more. Frankly, I never would have started Ceretropic had I known then what I know now. The risk is immense. I have to protect myself and my team. 65 people depend on me for their jobs. I cannot take the risks I did in the past.
I can't even go into my own lab anymore with a sample and just ask one of my people to test it for me. I have to fill out sample submission forms, and document what goes into/out of the lab and the results. My team has to fill out paperwork, and schedule time on the specific machine for the testing. If I go in after hours, there might be testing running overnight on the machines that I can't disturb. Frankly, I would not even know how to run most of the machines in the lab anymore if I wanted to try my hand at it. I fly my lab techs out to week long training on a lot of this stuff, and they get certified to run a specific machine. I could run the FTIR/ATR, melting point apparatus, LOD, and maybe water activity meter, but that's about it. No way I could sit and fumble my way through the HPLC, UPLC, HP-TLC, titration machine, or even the polarimeter without some training. I am going to be getting lessons on the HP-TLC soon, though! So that will be fun! But you can see things are a lot different than in the past, where I could just hand a sample to my lab manager and ask for quick results, or jump on a machine myself and get some results. We've grown up too much for that. We operate like a much larger company these days. It's what has to happen for us to get where I want to take us, though.
And one last thing. From what you've tested in the past, which suppliers of research chemicals (preferably ones that don't exclusively deal in bulk) have had a clean record? At the end of day, I understand you run a business so feel free to ignore this.
Nobody has a perfectly clean record. I mean that wholeheartedly. Everyone messes up. We've had 10 pure batches of something come through from a supplier, to only have the 11th be impure or the wrong compound. We've had 39 out of 40 barrels of the same batch be pure, but found the 40th to be impure. We've had the powder at the top of a barrel test fine, but found particulates in the bottom. This is why we have detailed sampling procedures now, and cool sampling probes. I built a whole freestanding positive pressure HEPA sampling room in our quarantine area, and hired a dedicated sampling tech that follows detailed SOPs. Even the 3rd party labs we use, most have messed something up at one point or another. Some more than others, for sure. However, screw-ups happen. This is why you have processes and procedures that catch them, and you don't deviate from them. When you deviate, you allow the possibility for a screw-up to adversely affect consumers. This is why I cannot deviate from what I feel is an acceptable minimum standard. Hopefully you understand.